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Fail Forward with Adnan & Dan
Adnan & Dan discuss failure, struggle and self-doubt to demystify what success actually means & looks like. Ready to deep dive your failure? Message to be a guest on the show!
Fail Forward with Adnan & Dan
EP54 - From the Brink: A Millionaire Alcoholic Gambler's Journey of Overcoming Addiction with David Sober
Ever feel like life is a high stakes game where you're always teetering on the edge? You're not alone. Today's guest, David Golding, has lived it – he's battled addiction, faced down loneliness, and clawed his way back from the brink. David bravely shares how his struggles with alcohol, cocaine, and gambling spiraled into the near-destruction of his personal life and a multi-million dollar business, and the redemption that came with his journey to sobriety.
The story doesn't stop there. We dig deep into David's startling experiences with addiction and the havoc it wreaked on his relationships, featuring a revealing look into his journey through rehab and his relapse. His raw, honest account of battling his demons serves as a stark reminder of the tyranny of addiction. Yet, amidst the darkness, David found hope and motivation from a recovering peer, turning his life around and sparking a newfound gratitude for the life he now leads.
Our conversation takes a turn towards the philosophical as David opens up about his understanding of life, the universe, and his place within it all. He talks about the transformative power of acceptance and gratitude, the liberating experience of embracing one's insignificance, and the enduring journey towards recovery. His words are a testament to the extraordinary resilience of the human spirit and the beauty of taking that first, hesitant step towards change. Listen in and be inspired by David Golding's story of overcoming addiction and finding hope in the most unexpected of places.
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On today's episode, we meet David Golding, a living testament to the power of resilience and transformation. Battling alcohol, cocaine and a gambling addiction for multiple decades, he endured the darkest steps of life, facing multiple divorces and attempting to take his own life multiple times. Yet in the face of immense challenges, david found the courage to rise above his struggles From the highs of building and running a multi-million dollar business to the lows of personal turmoil. David's journey is a roller coaster of experiences. Now, having conquered his demons, he leads a mental health and substance abuse coaching service alongside his wife in Dubai and the UK. Join us as we dive into David's candid story of overcoming major failures and finding redemption in his path to success.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Fail Forward podcast, where Dan and Adnan peel back the onion on our guest stories and on each other, all in an effort to change the narrative of failure. Enjoy the show. Welcome to the Fail Forward podcast with Adnan and Dan. Dan is here remotely he's off in the UK right now for a short while but we're here with our honored and beloved guest, david Golding. How are you doing, sir?
Speaker 2:First, thank you for inviting me. I'm really excited to be with you guys. I love you guys, so this is super.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually think that this was such a great occurrence because we tried to do this entirely virtually yesterday and, due to some connection issues, the alternative was doing it in person, and I already feel like this part is going to be great, just because of the in-person environment. Of course, dan, I feel like you're just great in-person or virtually so. Regardless, you're going to be a great guest and a host on the podcast.
Speaker 3:I'm happy to be here and excited for the conversation Fabulous.
Speaker 2:Well, dan gets a virtual hug, you get a real one. Perfect.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we talked a little bit yesterday and I want to kind of start off from there. Your story is a very interesting one that has extreme highs and extreme lows. You initially had experiences with a variety of challenges in your early life anxiety, depression, kind of a war, potentially, of self-image. Regardless of this, you achieved quote unquote success or at least major growth in the crafts you engaged in. So that was your business, the corporate work. You did things in life as well, with your family and kids and such.
Speaker 1:But it sounded like a lot of the core issues weren't being addressed and that led you to go into certain habits that weren't healthy long-term for you. That's right and that was correct me if I'm wrong or feel free to add, but that was drinking, drugs, gambling and a variety of other things that went along with that. Sure, talk me through a little bit of not necessarily the entire journey, but feel free to do. But I would love to hear more about some pivotal moments during those that journey that ultimately led you to a point to say, no, this is it. I need to start changing, yes, and then maybe even the framework or the few set of things you did, to start going and pivoting towards the right path for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, well, thanks for the question. You know we look at our past. I look at my past to try and figure out who I was, in an attempt to figure out who I am. You know that when I finally got clean and sober, which was in 2019, the decade prior to that was the worst decade of my life, and we talked about my childhood, where I was struggling to know who I was, not having the skills as a young boy, not knowing how to make friends, not knowing how to be comfortable, not knowing what to do when you feel anxious. Not knowing, not knowing, not knowing so much of those skills that I think I used to look at everyone around me. They seemed to get these skills. They seem to go through life and absorb all these challenges and skills.
Speaker 2:Of course, I know, know you can't tell what somebody else is going through, but nevertheless, as a young man, I thought everyone else seems to be really together and I'm not. It's my secret. I can work hard and I'm smart and I can focus on my career, but my great secret was I felt a fraud. I was scared, I didn't know how to behave. So I think that I became a bit of a social chameleon in as much as I could wear a mask, and I think lots of people would identify with wearing a mask, with pretending that everything's okay, of putting on a suit and going to work and doing a job, but then coming home and being somebody different. So I fell into drugs and alcohol and gambling, and what I mean when I say I fell into it. I've got this notion that there's a slide that you gradually go down. You know, the disease of addiction is progressive and insidious and it's slow, it creeps up on you. So lots and lots of people will say, hey, listen, when I first started taking cocaine, it was great fun. It was a party drug and I used to go out and I used to have great fun. And then it became a problem and alcohol was really sociable and I would go out with all my friends and it was great fun. And then it stopped being great fun, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think when we talk about pivotal incidents, for me they were just a general slide of happiness and being comfortable, of faking it and pretending that everything was okay when it wasn't. I'm not knowing how to cope with that. So you know, when we talk about how I cope, I think, because I am a holic. I'm a workaholic as well, so I can really work hard. So in terms of my business success, I think a lot of that was down to my mathematical mind and thinking quickly. But I also think it meant that you know if you're working 40 hours a week, I'm doing 120. Now I'm doing triple. I'll work from seven in the morning to two in the morning and get four hours sleep and then do it again. So I think that there was part of that. But to a long way of answering your question, I think the pivotal moments were in that last 10 years and we call those rock bottom moments in alcoholism or drug addiction the moment where you've really got to take notice.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's the incident, and that's your moment where you think, oh my gosh, I've got a problem.
Speaker 1:Many people, like you mentioned, can relate to the concept of wearing a face trying to be liked and faking it, but not everyone necessarily has the story of slowly but surely descending into this abyss. Was it the work? Was it the money? Was it something that essentially enabled this slide to go lower and lower and lower?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. Let's be honest, I think the money was a critical factor. Okay, so let's go back to when I was 42 years old. So I'd been a heavy drinker. I just got divorced from my first wife. I was successful in my career, I was a consultant working in banking, and then I decided to start my business. And that was an epiphany one day, where I just decided I've had enough in this corporate world and I quit my job and I'd had a business idea and I put £110,000 on my credit card.
Speaker 2:I left England, I went to the Isle of man. I lived in a bed seat. I'm 42. I lived in a bed seat. I got the number seven bus to work. I rented a really cheap office that was £162 a month.
Speaker 2:I remember I had a company office that's big enough for one desk and two chairs and I started my company there and it completely exploded and we turned over £33 million in the first year and I bought my first Ferrari 12 weeks after I'd started and I got my £110,000 back and by six months later I was earning more money a month than I used to earn in a year. Now that meant that all the anxiety and worries about just having been divorced, not living with my sons, living away from home, being a workaholic gambling all my money Because that was a gamble. It wasn't a calculated risk take, it was an out and out gamble at 42 and it paid off in terms of money. So in many ways that accelerated me into a further decline, because now I had the pressures of running my own business, wanting it to succeed, dealing with a failed marriage, dealing with the fact that I was now on my own, desperate to find another relationship.
Speaker 1:And also the evidence that gambling works in this specific area of your life, correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd not thought of it at the time that it was a gamble, but that was what it was and it completely paid off. I think I made some good decisions along the way. I mean, I wasn't always a daily screw-up. I could make some really good decisions. So, for example, I recognized very quickly that I might be somebody who can work hard, create a business that can turn over 50 million quid, but I wasn't the guy that to run it, to take it to the next level. So I hired a chief executive who was fantastic and he joined and then he and the team helped build this business into the stratosphere. So over the next 10 years we turned over $2 billion and I was only an absolute fortune. Well, of course, by then, when I had a management team, my ego got the better of me and it meant that I could turn up when I wanted to turn up. And on the days that I couldn't turn up because I was hungover on a cocaine, come down dealing with life I wouldn't turn up. So that was really faking it. You know this notion of a functional alcoholic. I wasn't functioning, I was faking it. And then over the next 10 years, you know, I started my business in 2007.
Speaker 2:I remarried in 2009. I remarried because I was so lonely. Absolutely that was how I felt. I was working hard, rushing around juggling things. You know the pressures of all of those things. You know I don't want to make it sound like poor me. It wasn't poor me. I was becoming incredibly financially wealthy, but emotionally I was bankrupt. So I met a lady, you know. We had a whirlwind romance. We got married. Six weeks after we got married, I went to my first rehab because I knew I was drinking too much, I knew I was unhappy and I thought actually at that time gosh, you know, for a man who's got as much money as ever, wanted more money than he's ever wanted I've just bought a mansion, I've just got remarried. I should be happy and I'm not.
Speaker 1:Was it something about what marriage brought you, the impact, the weight positive and negative off marriage that motivated your decision to go to rehab?
Speaker 2:I think it was the tyranny of the shoulds. I call it the tyranny of the shoulds. When we use the word should and shouldn't, you might point the finger and say, well, he should do this, she shouldn't have done that. I should be doing this. When we use the word should or shouldn't, it's a really finger pointing thing and I was doing it to myself and it was that test. I should be happy now and almost maybe I don't recall, but maybe I got married, thinking if I got married, that will fix all my problems. So, and it didn't, you know, and it was nothing to do with the lady that I married. She was lovely, it was just. I was insane. I was in the middle and the grip of active addiction and I had been for many years. You know, I hadn't mentioned, but when I started having all the money rolling in, then I found cocaine and that became a new addiction for me very quickly, I think. I thought that you know what rich and famous people take cocaine, you know that's maybe that's what I've got to do. And suddenly I've got a gambling addiction and alcohol addiction and a cocaine addiction. So I go into rehab in 2009, six weeks after getting married, realizing I was a mess, but I wasn't willing to accept the harsh realities and the truths. You know, I got an education in rehab and they sent me on my way after four weeks, but I hadn't bought into the reality of my situation. And the reality was I was an absolute alcoholic drug addict and I was insane and I didn't listen. I didn't listen to their advice and I actually came out and gave myself a deadline and said if I'm not happier in six months time, I'll carry on drinking because clearly recovery isn't for me. The truth was, I didn't vote myself for recovery. What I did was immediately book up a private jet for all my friends to go to Monte Carlo, stay on Eddie Irving's boat and watch the Grand Prix. So I'd actually booked to myself that trip as soon as I'd come out. So there was no test of I'm gonna do everything and if in six months it's not work, no, no, no, no. I'd never even bought into that. So the script at that point was written for me to go through another five years of hell and then end up back in rehab in 2014, my second stint. That was on the back of my second divorce, becoming an out and out cocaine addict. Having an attempt, a serious attempt on my life where I nearly died. No so around 2013,. I'm still going down this slide. My relationship with my wife breaks down because of my extreme behavior and my extreme addictions. We'd split up. I'm living in an apartment on my own and I'm looking at my life Again. The tyranny of the shoulds. You should be happy. Why the hell are you living on your own again? You've had one divorce. Now look at you again.
Speaker 2:And I decided to take my own life and I was seriously 12 hours from death after taking a massive overdose and I'd ended up in hospital and I won't explain what I took because I don't want to give anyone the idea, but it was a horrible way to die and actually what I'd taken was an overdose of tablets, a lethal dose, and it kills your liver what I'd taken. So it wasn't a coma, it wasn't falling into some fluffy, lovely coma. There's nothing lovely about suicide. It's awful For anyone contemplating suicide and people can't understand. I can only explain that you are so mentally ill that you think that killing yourself is the right answer. That's how mentally ill people can become.
Speaker 2:And I was 12 hours from death and the doctor said you've killed your liver, we're gonna have to send you to the National Liver Unit to get a transplant. But, david, I need to warn you, there are not livers on shelves. If you go to the liver transplant unit in 12 hours and there is not a liver, you will die. If you're lucky, there will be a car crash and someone will die and you can take their liver. So if I were you, I would see a lawyer write a will and say you're goodbyes. And I did that. And then I waited for 12 hours saying the addict's prayer.
Speaker 2:By the way, whether you believe God or don't believe God, I believe that every addict says the addict's prayer, and there's two versions of the addict's prayer. One version goes like this God, I want to die. When you're in the grip of addiction and you've been taking cocaine for three days and you're having psychosis and you want it to stop and you can't make it stop, you say to God I want to die. The other version of that is that when you're close to death, you say God, I want to survive. So I was praying to God, please make me live. And sure enough, 24 hours later, the doctor came back and said this is a miracle, david, your liver has healed Overnight, you can go home, and I went home, and then two days later it was drunk on drugs and gambling again. So I went back to rehab in 2014. So my idea, radnan and Dan, is that there's this slide, it's getting worse now, now I've nearly died, and then I go back to rehab again.
Speaker 1:One would assume in this idealistic story of how we're thought to believe is that you came so close to death and you discovered that actually you wanted to live.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:And then, coming out of that, you come with a newfound sense of appreciation, gratitude and purpose for the world. But the reality is no.
Speaker 3:It doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1:The addictions are worse than that Correct. They don't follow a typical movie story.
Speaker 2:No. Now look, some people do have life-changing moments. Yeah, people face death, For example. Forgive me, I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, but let's say, imagine somebody has a cancer diagnosis and they pull through and they say that moment changed my life, it changed my whole attitude. I quit my job, I decided to spend time with my grandchildren. My whole world was so shook up. It affected me positively. That wasn't the case for me, and I know why it wasn't. By the way, I know why that didn't change me and it was because when I went into rehab again in 2014,.
Speaker 2:Sure enough, I got more of an education. I learned more lessons. I found a little bit, maybe, of understanding, but what I needed to learn was how to behave, such that alcohol and drugs and gambling weren't my solution. So those were the problems that I felt, the way I felt, and it meant that the only way I could cope with how I felt was to run away. What I needed to do was to learn how to feel different. So I went out into the madness again. I mean, I was sober for nearly a year, but I was hanging on by my fingertips Because David Golding version one had not changed Even when I put down the drink and the drugs. I was the same guy, I thought the same way, I behaved the same way. What I needed to do was have a wholesale change, and I hadn't done it yet. And actually what happened was that I had to go through another five years of help, and I think I was saying that I can tell you that the difference, what the difference was. So, in 2014, I came back out sober for a bit, remarried to my lovely wife, christina that I'm married to now, who, I have to say on air, is an absolute lovely human being, who supported my recovery, and she was just wonderful. And we're about to launch a podcast where we're talking about what it's like to be married to an addict. But I went into the madness and then I had another low point, my third and final big low points, if you like, and can I just explain what that low point was, please, please, lovely, okay. So four more years of help takes me to 2019.
Speaker 2:My wife and I are so estranged. I keep running away, I'm taking drugs, I'm drinking every day, I've got more money than I had before, I've got a lovely wife and a new family and a lovely children, yet I'm still unhappy because I'm the same guy. I'm the same guy that I was 10 years before. Nothing had changed. Sure, I knew more. I knew that drugs and alcohol were killing me, but I had no way to change. And actually, what happened was that there was one final incident that changed everything. I left my wife. I picked an argument with her because everything now was out of control.
Speaker 2:Every single part of my life was out of control, and I ended up for the third time in an apartment on my own, this time with no furniture, and I'm in this apartment thinking, oh my God, here I am again. I'm 54 years old, I've now split up from my third wife, I'm in a bloody apartment here with no furniture, and I was on my own. And I called my sons, who were by then 18 and 21, and I said to my son guys, come around on Saturday night, because I don't want to be on my own. I can't. I can't stand being on my own. And they said, okay, dad, and they came around. Well, with my sons there, what was my natural thing to do? Have a bloody party. It's completely insane.
Speaker 2:So I bought a load of alcohol. I got really drunk. My son's turned up and I was already drunk and while my sons were there, I thought I'm gonna buy some cocaine. I bought 10 grams of cocaine. I Wrapped up a load of lines in the kitchen and I invited my sons into the kitchen and pointed at them and said you will not be a man if you don't know how to take cocaine it makes my hand sweat to say this and my sons looked at each other and they left and I was so disgusted and appalled at my own behavior that I could do that to my sons.
Speaker 2:I got the most important emotion that I'd ever had, that I needed, and that emotion was disgust. I Was so disgusted and then I went outside to hang myself and I heard a voice, and the voice said don't kill yourself, david, go back to rehab. And that was what I did. I called my wife and said I'm going back to rehab. She explains that that changed her world. The minute I'd said I'm done, yeah, and I went back to rehab and this time I was serious because I knew there was no way out. I knew I was a dead man, I knew I was finished. And actually what happened was that in that rehab they have peer supporters, volunteers, and I'm a volunteer now.
Speaker 2:Yeah and there was a gentleman there called Stuart, who was in there with me in 2014 and Suddenly in front of me there's Stuart, who'd got well and I hadn't, and I looked at him and thought why have you got well and why have I not? Because I really like this guy. He's a good guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah he's got well. And then I realized what I'd been missing all this time. I've had enough pain. I'd been in pain for a lifetime. The thing that had been missing was hope. I Hadn't had the hope. I never thought that I was worthy of getting well. I never thought I was, it was possible. I didn't believe it was possible. Yet suddenly in front of me was a man who gave me all the hope that I needed, and then I thought I'm done. I'm gonna do every single thing that they say. I'm gonna do. Recovery like it. My life depends on it because it did, and what I did was then, and that's nearly four years ago. All I've done now is is work on recovery, and that's why I've ended up being a sober coach, because I love recovery. I had to learn all these different things.
Speaker 1:That goes in applying the framework as you're saying it. Sorry Dan go ahead, actually I.
Speaker 3:Was just gonna say that goes perfectly into the now and today. David and I was gonna ask how do you feel or how are you today?
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a lovely question. I think I can explain that. Every day for me begins with one thing, and it's a really important thing. It's gratitude. Okay, so I can now say I've stood, stood on the cliff at the gates of hell and look down and I no longer want to be David Golding version one. I do not want to be that man. I refuse to be that man. So now, today, I will try and be the best version of me that I can be. So every day starts with gratitude. Hey, listen, I'm a human being, by the way. I don't sit here with a big ego and say I'm perfect, I screw up, but if I do, I'll say sorry and make amends and I'll try and be the best person that I can be and give my time Willingly and be grateful for everything that I've had. So today, every day is full of gratitude, and I look back on David Golding version one, knowing that man never had a future. He was destined for an early, early grave and I refuse to be him.
Speaker 1:What I've noticed about you, even in just today and yesterday's interaction, is that you express a love for situations and people that that I I and Anna few like not very often seen in others, and I Think it's very much a result of you actually having seen the worst of the world, the things that it can happen and the type of person you can become, because Even dad and I we've we've had our struggles, but for you, every day, relative to the you know, essentially a majority of your life, yes, is like paradise, correct? So why aren't we, in your eyes, the best people in the world? Why isn't this at the best environment? Why isn't this the best weather? Because you could be underground right now, correct?
Speaker 2:I absolutely. What you're talking about there is is the most beautiful perspective that I've been given as a gift. You are right, there's another point there. So I've got my own Life's journey, my own experiences, the memories that and experiences that I can draw on to make comparison. I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you know if I'm having a day that's pants, because we all have a day that's pants. Yeah, I can just very quickly play a movie of me offering my son's cocaine and I'll get emotional there because no day is as pants as that, no day is as bad as that. In fact, every day is wonderful compared to some of the days I've had and these are tears of joy, by the way, about how grateful I am, you know, to be alive, to be able to spend time with good people. You know I now look for the goodness in people and when, throughout a lifetime of running away from people and not knowing how to behave, I've now got such more acceptance about Humanity. You know I believe in the upward spiral of humanity. Yeah, I believe in the goodness of people. Now, not everyone else, not everyone, has got the skills. Everyone's learning and some people are a bit malevolent and dark, but I don't choose to look at those people or spend much time with them. I choose to spend time with people who have got goodness. So, for example, you know, growing up I think I always felt victimized, that the world was horrible to me, that I didn't like some of the people in the world.
Speaker 2:Actually, in the rooms of alcoholics anonymous, and cocaine anonymous, and narcotics anonymous and gamblers anonymous there are people there who were trying their best to become good human beings. You know. So, hidden in plain sight are thousands and thousands and thousands of people who've had struggles and are trying to prevail. Yeah, so I've spent a decade or more in the rooms of AA. I've probably listened to the stories of 25,000 people and I'm a mathematician, I calculate these things and I've seen thousands of people recover. I've seen thousands of people who arrived broken and suicidal and now live beautiful, fulfilled lives, yet they still want to come back and help people. That's the world I want to live in. That's the world that makes me cry with joy. It's not sitting on the metro and seeing two people have an argument about who's stolen a seat. It's about the upward spiral of humanity men, women and everyone holding hands with each other and Prevailing against odds.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Really important to me. It makes me be grateful to be alive. And and also this, this notion you don't know what's around the corner that I find that exciting. I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. You know, a few weeks ago I didn't know that we would be here today. Those are the wonderful things in life to keep your eyes and ears open and expect the unexpected. That's so wonderful. The script's not written. I can do anything I want, as long as I apply some reasonable rules of goodness.
Speaker 1:Man I. The other thing I'm imagining is, yes, you had to go through some very, very tough times, but you are now free in many ways off. Like you mentioned, the chains yes, there are a lot of people are current led. Most people, maybe even Dan and I included, are still chained to to this day. Yes, yes, not sinking us to the bottom of the ocean, but consistently just slightly keeping us under water or slightly just keeping us tied to that one tree. That's avoiding us from venturing out and being as open to the world as you are.
Speaker 2:That's. You're right that. So this we were talking beforehand about, about the chains I was talking about, I don't give a monkeys about yesterday. I'm not, I'm not bothered with yesterday. Yesterday's gone, it's finished. As long as there's no hangover from yesterday, you know, as long as there's no unfinished business from yesterday, like I've not screwed anyone over, lied to any anyone, cheated them, you know, and I don't do those things and if I mistakenly Mislead somebody, for example, I'll go and say sorry and I'll make amends and fix all that. So I don't carry around yesterday and I was saying that you know, maybe yesterday's like a ball and chain. We all carry Yesterday around, so, forgive me, we don't all carry yesterday around. I carried yesterday around Like a ball and chain tied to my foot and then expected to go swimming in the sea. Well, it's not gonna happen. I'm gonna drown. And actually I had to look at all the ball and chains in my life and and in fact many of the, the chains that are holding us down. They're handcuffs that we put on ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know and and mixing the metaphors, but you know what we can do is we can just cut these chains and get rid of them takes effort. You know part of the work that I do with clients and the work that I had to do, I call it emotional Archaeology. You know I need to go digging. Yeah, I wanted to know who David Golding was, because there was some nice bits of David Golding that I wanted to keep, but there were other bits of him that weren't working and not saying I was a good guy and a bad guy, they were just bits of me that didn't work. Yeah, attitudes, thought processes, behaviors they all needed to change. I had to learn skills that I probably might have learned as a teenager if I hadn't been drinking alcohol.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know. So this was a wholesale change in my attitude to life. So you are right, and today I can walk the earth a free man, and that's really important to me. Yeah, nothing's. There's no drugs, alcohol or gambling or sex or porn addiction or shopping addiction. You know a bit too much chocolate and probably drink a bit too much coffee. That's okay, I can work on that. Yeah, I'm not a perfect human being, but there's nothing in my life that's changing how I think, except me.
Speaker 3:David, I want to refer back to when we first met and it was that serendipitous moment between four people that all met in a coffee shop. And I must admit when I first met you you look like the most friendly, like loving, caring, kind person that I've ever met, greeted with a great big hug and a smile, really warm, friendly, but it was. It was later on and after that that coffee wheel had that you said used to find those moments really, really challenging and the thought of meeting new people straight away in a coffee shop. We're just scared of living daylights at you and you wouldn't see it from you. Now, the way you talk and you around people, such you know, it's almost like it comes completely easy to you. But that was never an easy thing for you, was it?
Speaker 2:No, my whole life. You absolutely right, dan. Thank you for saying those kind words, I think, because I'd always felt a fraud. I'd always been pretending to be comfortable as opposed to knowing how to be comfortable. I'll give you an example. You know my youngest son, david. We run out of children's names because we've got seven seven children. We called him. He's called David and he's lovely. He has no concepts of being shy or being retiring, he just is.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know the innocence of children that we see it's almost I'd lost any innocence of how to be without Questioning myself. So you're right, dan, when I would go for meetings I would have to analyze, prepare, present myself. I would play role-playing games in my head in case people ask me a question and I would need to know all the permutations of all the answers and then, if they have answered a question on that question, all the permutations, and I would blow my own brains in with fear of meeting people, because I just didn't know how to behave. And I think it was because I Was so uncomfortable with who I was. And I think now, maybe what you see is authenticity. I'm authentic, I'm accepting that sometimes I'll screw up and I also don't need everyone to love me. I don't need everyone to like me. You know I used my money and wealth to buy friends. Let's make no bones about that. I gave away houses. I gave somebody in McLaren. I would take people on private jets. I would give them money and jobs.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was desperate to be liked and I will basically buy people off. You know now, if you like me, that's lovely, if you don't, that's lovely, you know, that's okay, I can't really affect you. So there's the whole thing about acceptance. So I think I learned some new skills done. But I needed to, because for 54 years I've been a ball in a pinball machine and with each buffer, with each flipper, it hurt me.
Speaker 3:Sounds like that Transition from the human doing to the human being just just being. Now you've learned to just oh.
Speaker 1:Powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I want to sorry.
Speaker 2:All I was gonna say was look, you know, we all have bad days too.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'll tell you. I'll tell you something I learned in early recovery about what to do if you have a bad day. Okay, cuz sometimes you have a bad day. You know, stuff happens with human beings and the world Apex us. Go to bed, that's my solution go to bed.
Speaker 2:I realized in early recovery my safest place was it under under a duvet, in bed. I'm unlikely to go to an off-license Phone, a dealer or do anything, and there are so many times where I went to bed at five or six in the evening and it was because in the old day we were trying wrestle with today. I mean, I just worked hard to get out of bed. Today. I'm going to go to bed today, today, wrestle to get a victory out of today, even though it's a shitty day. I can't go to bed until I've won and I'm gonna force myself and get on the iPad and the laptop and fix something. Oh, forget that. Do you know what? Today's? A bit pants. I'm off to bed, yeah, and you go to sleep and you wake up. And that was yesterday, and you know my theory about yesterday.
Speaker 2:Yeah so, actually, instead of wrestling all the goddamn time with the world and the universe, just let go. I can't do much about that.
Speaker 1:that Today's been a bit tense and you have the most evidence to say that, truly, what is the worst that can happen? You've seen the worst. Yeah, if I don't work on this project today, it'll be there tomorrow, okay. I can't come to the podcast without undaunted. Okay, what happened tomorrow? Correct, you know it's not suicide. No, it's not suicide that. I don't know if that would no pun intended at all, but there's a reality to that difference, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, there's the other thing. I think there's so many ways of explaining that you're right. There's the other thing, which is this earth is spinning at 1100 miles an hour. Okay, that's how fast it spins. Yeah, it's so big it takes 24 hours to spin.
Speaker 2:Once this earth is spinning, whatever I bloody do, yeah, I'm insignificant to this planet in that way and as long as I remember my insignificance to the importance of everything, it means that things that are important to me, they're not important to so many other people in the planet. So I'm better get a good perspective about that. The things that are important to me, if I can get on and do them and deliver them, that's great. But if it also means that I have to accept other things, I best readily accept them. Otherwise it's going to drive me insane. You know to rage against the world and what people do and don't do, and you know we learn in recovery that we're powerless over people, places, things and situations. You know we're powerless over people.
Speaker 2:I can work with a client and try and help them. I've got a reliable and repeatable program to help people quit drinking. Okay, all I can do is suggestions. You know I'm not responsible. I can't make you get sober. I can really tell you why and educate you and hold your hand and do all these things. These are only suggestions and it's down to him. So you know. And if the guy wants to listen, brilliant, if he doesn't want to listen, brilliant. I can't do much about that. I'll try my hardest, but I'm not responsible or accountable.
Speaker 1:You're being the steward to anyone else who needs one. Yeah, that's the way I see it. Yeah, because you said I think the two triggers for you that were big ones after a decade were your kids and the hope you have for them. Yes, and then the very direct and tangible hope you saw in Stuart that it is possible. Correct, absolutely. It's an absolute pleasure to see you being that visual embodiment of hope for others. Bless you. I want to end off with a little short game. Okay, and it's more just an open set of questions rather than a game. Yeah, it's called and you'll love this the meaning of life, meaning of life, and it's a series of questions that, honestly, are way more smart. Can?
Speaker 3:I ask one question before we go into the game. Yes, please.
Speaker 3:I had it in my head and I feel are a great if I don't ask it so we can cut this bit out and go back to it. So we'll work on that. David, what would you say to someone that is an alcoholic and knows they're an alcoholic? Yep, and yeah, they're struggling at the moment, but they realized that there is a problem and they've tried to get help, but things aren't working. And they're still an alcoholic, but they're gradually trying to get better each day, but there's still a problem and they know there's a problem. What would you say to that person? One thing, would you say it's almost like they're aware Because I think that's the first thing, isn't it with being an alcoholic or having an addiction, is just that awareness straight away that there is a problem, because without that you can't help anyone. They've got to help themselves. But what would be the first thing you would tell someone in that position? Maybe the position that you were in back then?
Speaker 2:Okay, I know the reasons why I failed for 10 years and I've explained that there was a lack of hope, but the truth was it was down to action. It's the same in anything, isn't it? Nothing's going to improve unless you put some bloody effort in. It's not going to happen for free. I'm not going to get rained on with recovery. It's just I've got to do something, and I think the truth is that anyone in active addiction that's battling what they're really battling with is am I really an alcoholic? Can I change? What can I do? It seems too difficult For most people. The problem with alcohol addiction is what am I going to do if I put it down? How am I going to feel? How am I going to behave? So I think it's such a complex web and for anyone individual there could be many, many reasons why they're not making progress, but probably the brief answer any sort of progress is progress, anything. So in my 10 years of hell, the truth was I was making progress. We've got this notion professionally in recovery. They're called the pathways of recovery. No, two people's pathway is the same, but if you're on a pathway that's better than not. Okay, I can't judge someone else's recovery and say whether it's good or bad. If somebody says I'm an alcoholic and I used to drink three bottles of vodka a night and now I'm only drinking two, I would say well done, mate. That's bloody good, that's really good. I would love it if you could get to zero. But for today, bloody well done, because that's taken effort, you're recognizing, you're getting a problem, you're improving, you're making progress. So any sort of progress, that's surely the rule for humanity. We've all got to make some progress in any number of different directions. I think it's when that phrase which is there's none so blind as those who won't see If people are in that camp, you've got no hope. In the same way, you can't reason with the unreasonable. There's all these little phrases I've got. But for anyone who wants to improve, that's the most important thing. The desire to improve and to put the action in, which means any amount of progress, is bloody brilliant. That's a miracle. Can I just explain why it's a miracle? Yes, forgive me, I know I talk a lot.
Speaker 2:I've got this idea of something called the infinite journey. When we embark on something new, the first step is the infinite step. It's the hardest step to begin. Well, why is it so hard Because it's the infinite journey. If I start with a blank piece of paper and I want to write a book, beginning writing the book goes from zero to one version, one, one page. One divided by zero is infinity. That's why it's the infinite journey. To go from a blank page to page one, to go from page one to page two, that's only 100%. To go from page two to page three, well, that's only 50%. Well, actually, the curve really falls quickly 150, 30, 20, 10. It really falls. The hardest page to write is the first page. The hardest step to take is the first step. That's why it's called the infinite journey.
Speaker 1:There's this one trick that I use in my life and by no means that you know up to the scale of the challenges you're using it to tackle. But when I don't want to do something, or when I'm internally battling with the decision to do the thing or procrastinate, just do it for two minutes. Just do it for two minutes, even if it sucks, even if you hate it. And there's so much power and this is something I've been thinking about for the last couple of months in momentum, Things that are moving will stay moving, so the effort is really just on the acceleration and if you realize that that's all you need, it becomes so much easier to start doing the task and making the change. Just turn this steering wheel, just hit the accelerator, and sometimes it's just hit the brakes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's all action, that motion. Newton's second law F equals MA, force equals mass times, acceleration. Now, to get this thing accelerating, to get this dead weight, this mass, accelerating, I've got to put some force into this. I've got to get this thing moving. Yeah, I mean, I've got this other lovely idea. I think there's a bit of Greek mythology or a Greek story about a guy that has to push the boulder uphill.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. So sometimes the hardest things we do it's like waking up in the morning and my job is to push this massive boulder up a hill and I'm pushing the boulder up and it falls back down and every time I go to bed it rolls back down to the bottom of the hill and then tomorrow I've got to push the boulder up the hill. The beautiful thing about this is that every time the boulder falls down the hill, it chips little bits off and one day the boulder will be a pebble. Keep pushing the boulder up the hill. It's not always a boulder, it gets smaller. So even the hardest things that you think, I'm just pushing a boulder up the hill every day. This is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Will it ever end? Will I succeed? This is awful. Keep pushing the boulder. Yeah, it gets better. You get better. You get fitter and stronger. The boulder gets smaller. You learn more. So combine the infinite journey which is just begin.
Speaker 2:I love what you said. You just put pen to paper. But if you've got a blank piece of paper and you're writing your book, just say this is my book. You've done something. It's now no longer a blank page, just anything. I love progress. I've learned that progress changed me. We don't change overnight, and the sooner I got off the page of imagining with my impatience that I could fix everything in 24 hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the joy comes from the journey. It comes from learning to progress. It also comes from falling over. Yeah, you know, sometimes when I fall flat on my face, at least I'm moving forwards, you know, it's all right. So I love the idea of progress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and through decades of your life, you've tried and you've tried and you've tried again. That's what I've. You've not given up.
Speaker 2:I won't quit, no, now. Thomas Edison said the best way to guarantee you over is to quit. Yeah, yeah, I don't want to quit.
Speaker 1:Right, let's play this little game. Good, so every card has a question on it. Yeah, and it's likely more insightful, deep and thoughtful than anything we could think of. Okay, and for some reason, it always somehow relates well to the topic and the personality of the guest. Now, I have no idea how that works, but, okay, all right. So why don't you pick a card?
Speaker 2:Okay, you've got this one. Can you read it? I don't have my glasses on, forgive me, what?
Speaker 1:might surprise people if they really knew you.
Speaker 2:Gosh, what might surprise them? Maybe the person that I am now and Dan talked about it then and said I might come across as authentic and comfortable and all of those things, but still inside I'm not. Still inside, I'm struggling. Still inside, I'm working hard to be authentic because it doesn't come naturally to me. Yeah, so that's different from faking it, that's just practicing. Yeah, I still have to practice and I don't think I'll ever. I think probably the minute that I can stroll out on stage in front of 5,000 people and think I'm brilliant, that's the moment I've fucked it up, forgive me, that's the moment I've screwed up where my ego's got too big. So I think, yeah, I'm maybe not as confident as I might come across as.
Speaker 1:It's a process that takes time and that's the thing I've realized because to answer the same question you answered I am very, very similar. I definitely appreciate being liked by as many people as possible, and it's taken me over time to realize that I have unique energy. I am not normal relative to others and, as a result, I want to accept and I have to accept that a majority, statistically speaking for anyone, a majority of people will not like you Because their personalities are not essentially the equivalent of a puzzle fit with yours, and that's okay. All you can do is build an energy around yourself, whatever that may be, and allow people to come in and out of it, stay for as long as they wish, leave as long as they wish and, you know, hope that that's good enough, I agree.
Speaker 2:There's a healthy attitude and understanding, in a way of acceptance, to make sure that you haven't gotten in balance in the way that you view the world and other people's opinions. So it's really critical about other people's opinions because you touched on that. So, for example, dan, let's pretend you've had a party, it's your birthday party, you've given a birthday party and a hundred people have been invited and when the party's over, it's been a fantastic party, everyone's enjoyed it, they've been singing and dancing and everyone's smiling. And you stand by the front door and a hundred people leave. The first 99 give you a hug and say, dan, that was the loveliest party I've ever had. The last guy says that was a shit party and storms out. How do you feel? Do you hang on the words of the last guy or do you hang on the words of the 99?
Speaker 3:You would naturally feel pretty shit that you've had a terrible party. I think just from the last comment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that people would ruminate over it. Why did he say it was a shit party when everyone else said it was a great party? And actually the truth is it's what Adnan just said. I don't give a monkeys whether he liked the party or didn't like the party. I really don't. I don't think I would ruminate over it that much.
Speaker 1:And I think you and I think of it in that way, because we are also numbers people. What are the averages? Oh, I got 30% of people who, like me, the average is 25 or 20. Am I trying too hard? Am I trying to fake it? Am I trying to optimize for something?
Speaker 2:I'm just overcomplicating it. Hey, brian, didn't like the party. See it, brian, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:And he may be having a bad day too and just taking it out on the party and you yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you might have a resentment. So there's that learning about. You know, I don't need other people to. I don't need their acceptance or point of view to make me feel happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Dan your input.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was trying to think something that would surprise someone. I instantly think is there like a hobby or something you're really into? And I was thinking I was going to ask that question back David as well and say is there like if you could relive a moment or something that you absolutely love, be it going surfing or watching a musical or something? Is there anything that you absolutely love that would people would go? Really, I had no idea that you would like that. Is there anything for you that stands out like a hobby or something you're into really will love?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Okay, I've got loads. Actually there's there's lots and lots of things that make me smile. I'm very fortunate enough to have managed to afford to go to the Maldives many, many times and there's a favorite resort in the Maldives. It's called Anantara Ki Hava and I've been there often because they've got one of the largest telescopes in the whole of that hemisphere and the resort. I've been going there that long. I was there before they had a telescope. I used to talk about it. They have a fantastic telescope and when we go on holiday we do stargazing and we use the telescope at four in the morning and see Saturn's rings and the Orion Nebula and it's absolutely mind blowing.
Speaker 2:Part of my physics background. I'm really into cosmology and I look up at the stars and the awesome, just vastness of the stars, the distances, the numbers. They're just the cosmic genius of it all. That's when I can really let go. It grounds me. I just think it's the most beautiful thing it would make me cry with, because it's so beautiful to imagine the scale of the universe, because this universe isn't accidental. I know that it's not accidental and that gives me hope and serenity and many, many things. So, yeah, my favorite place is with my wife and my children looking up at the stars in the Maldives and seeing the huge, vast expanse of humanity laid out before me the universe and its majestic brilliance.
Speaker 1:What a great way to end the pod. Thank you so much, so much, so much, David, for sharing your time with us, for being incredibly honest, open, and I hope that this will inspire others to you know, to change their lives around and hopefully come talk to you and see how you can help them as well. Bless you, I'd love to. And where can people find you on the socials, on your website, all of that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, Website wwwsobaae, of course. And on the socials, all the socials. I'm at Soba Coach Dubai, Love it.
Speaker 3:Thanks, david, I'm going to go and bless you as well. Thanks, adam, thanks, dan. I'm going to go and start rolling my bold uphill. That's what I'm going to start doing now. I'm going to keep chipping it away. Thanks for listening. Leave us a review, tell us what you think, find us at Instagram failforwardpod. If you know someone that wants to be on the show, or if you want to be on the show, give us a shout, dm us. We'll see you soon.
